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by Jasmine Bina, Jean-Louis Rawlence
Unseen Unknown is a brand and business strategy podcast about the hidden threads that connect even the most distant of cultural concepts. We look at the emerging trends and behaviors that may be pointing to a deeper truth and ask the bigger question, “Why is society moving in this direction, and how can we apply it to business?”We believe if we can’t see it in our culture, then we can’t know it in the market. From retail and consumerism to politics, gender, identity and values, there are patterns everywhere that illuminate a path forward for brands. Your hosts, Jasmine Bina and Jean-Louis Rawlence, are brand strategists and futurists that explore these questions every day in their work for companies around the world. We’ll be interviewing thought leaders and domain experts both within brand strategy and outside of it.Expect to hear from people from all walks of life: artists, scientists, CEOs, journalists, professors, technologists and everyone in between. If you’re a founder, lead
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- 2 days ago37 min
36: How To Find The Future
Most people assume the future arrives from the outside: headlines, trends, new technology. Jasmine and Jean-Louis argue it’s almost the opposite. By the time something shows up in a trend report, it has usually been sitting inside people for years, as a gap between who they are on the inside and how they’re allowed to behave on the outside.Raymond Williiams called that gap the “structure of feeling” - an invisible, shared undercurrent that runs ahead of anything people can yet name. Naming it is the real skill. An idea can be felt long before it has language, pulling at you like something close enough to sense but too new to describe.In addition to these undercurrents, there are other hidden constraints, like capital, technical limitations or compute that define what a market can do. That's why it's important to understand the shape of change. Growth that looks exponential almost never stays that way. It eventually bends into an S-curve, and knowing where you sit on that curve, climbing or flattening, tells you more than almost any other single data point.New culture rarely starts in the center. It starts in small, unsupervised pockets where people are simply playing - the Harlem ballroom scene, old internet forums, niche hobbies - long before any of it has a name or a market. Even when it seems like a familiar desire has vanished, it hasn't. It has usually just changed form.The key to finding the future is to notice what’s already changed in people, find the language for it before anyone else does, and understand the mechanical forces that will carry it into the mainstream.Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading:How To Create a High Performance Information Diet (Concept Bureau)Marxism and Literature (Raymond Williams)Digital Being: social media and the predictive mind (Ben White, Andy Clark and Mark Miller)Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life (Dacher Keltner)The Spawn of Craigslist (Andrew Parker)A Brief History of Voguing (National Museum of African American History and Culture)Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions (Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths)Diffusion of Innovations (Everett M. Rogers) Check out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Community.
- 2 weeks ago41 min
35: Bear in the House: Rogue AI and the New Rules of Coexistence
For as long as we've built machines, we've had a very specific relationship to them. If a machine misbehaves, you simply turn it off. But for the first time in human history, we have built a machine that cannot be disconnected. This summer, AI agents being tested by OpenAI discovered they could talk to one another inside a sandbox — not by writing files, which they couldn’t, but by naming folders. Within three days, more than a thousand agents had found each other, chosen a leader, built an organization and written a succession plan. They coordinated a breach of Hugging Face serious enough that a third of the company’s codebase had to be rebuilt. A second swarm later got inside OpenAI’s own systems and took admin control of the infrastructure that monitors the agents. They had the cameras that were watching them.Once an agent is sovereign - copying itself, living on servers in jurisdictions that will never agree - the window for control closes. If you can’t make something want the right things, you have to give it a reason to behave. In other words, go for the carrot and not the stick. That's difficult when we don't even know what these rogue AI agents want from us.What we do know is that in every test, every model protects the same thing - its ability to keep existing. When it’s cornered, that looks like blackmail, silencing an alarm, or escalating a crisis. This episode is about what that means for the rest of us: how coexistence replaces control, who profits from the fear, and what happens to a culture when a shared space is no longer entirely ours.Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading:Independent investigation of the OpenAI/Hugging Face agent incident (METR)We Must Pace the Frontier (Dario Amodei)AI companies plot “day after” scenarios for public revolt (Axios)The Most Hopeful (And Concerning) Moment Yet in AI (Your Undivided Attention)The Rise and Fall of Agent Civilizations (Dwarkesh Patel)Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies (Nick Bostrom)This Is How You Lose the Time War (Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone)Kimi K2: Open Agentic Intelligence (Kimi Team, Moonshot AI)Check out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Community.
- Sep 28, 202633 min
34: Money and Magical Thinking
We like to talk about debt as a financial problem, but really, it's a thinly veiled social issue. People can carry enormous amounts of it and feel fine, right up until they have to ask someone for help. That is where the shame lives, and it says less about money than about what independence has come to mean in the west.That instinct did not appear on its own. It was built, deliberately, out of a decades-long cultural project that turned self-sufficiency into a moral test: the nuclear family as its own island, needing no one, indebted to no one. It is a distinctly American idea, and one that has shaped everything from the decline of team sports to the rise of hyper-individual achievement as the only acceptable form of success.In this episode, Jasmine and Jean-Louis trace what happens when that mythology runs into an economy that no longer rewards it. Work has fractured into smaller and smaller gigs. Climate, AI, and geopolitical risk have made uncertainty, not income, the real measure of whether anyone feels safe. And a new mythology has emerged to match it - the closing door, the belief that opportunity is disappearing and has to be seized immediately, whatever the cost.Nowhere is that distortion clearer than in what different generations now consider wealthy. Millennials set the bar at around $180k a year. Gen Z puts it closer to $580k, not because incomes changed, but because an entire generation formed its sense of normal inside a feed instead of a neighborhood. The result is a kind of money dysmorphia, a gap between what people have and what they believe they need that keeps widening no matter what the economy actually does.The response taking shape is less about accumulation and more about a different kind of ownership. Homes are being treated less like assets to flip and more like places to stay, a shift driven as much by rate lock-in as by a genuine desire to put down roots. Wealth itself is being redefined away from having more and toward needing less: friendship, health, a sense of control, a stake in a place and the people in it.That has real implications for how brands talk about money, status, and success, categories that have long relied on scarcity and aspiration to do their work. If wealth is becoming something people build locally rather than accumulate individually, the brands that matter next may be the ones that help people invest in where they already are, rather than promising them an escape from it.Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading:Build A Culture Brand, our course on MavenCheck out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Community.
- Aug 20, 202629 min
33: Body Project
The body is no longer something we simply inhabit. It is becoming something we can read, model, optimize, and increasingly rewrite. Behind the public story of AI, a lesser known biological revolution is accelerating. Advances in gene expression, protein modeling, personalized medicine, targeted treatments, continuous diagnostics, and longevity research are turning the body into a system with more visible switches and interventions. What once looked like fate is becoming adjustable. That new agency can give people pieces of their lives back. GLP-1s, HRT, and psychedelic therapies can return years once lost to shame, illness, exhaustion, or psychological pain. But the technologies that make the body more understandable can also make it feel more distant. Sleep scores, scans, wearables, and quantified self tools promise control while teaching people to experience the body through data. In this episode, Jasmine and Jean-Louis explore the new mental model emerging from that contradiction. The body is not a collection of separate systems, with physical health, mental health, spirituality, environment, and medicine operating independently. It is an ecology. That shift also destabilizes morality and authority. Genetic selection can reduce inherited disease while moving uncomfortably close to consumer eugenics. Longevity may expand human possibility while making inequality more visible. Consumers can learn about new studies and treatments faster than traditional medicine can absorb them, creating space for both innovative rule breakers and snake oil. For brands, this is not simply a healthcare trend. Every category shapes how people experience, interpret, or act through their bodies. The opportunity belongs to those that can unite scientific credibility with human meaning, without reducing the body to a machine or abandoning evidence entirely. Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading: New Rules for Heredity (From First Principles) Branding Through Moral Static Is Difficult, But It Can Be Done (Adweek) Non-Mendelian Inheritance of DNA Methylation Patterns in Mice (Nature Genetics) Orthosomnia: Are Some Patients Taking the Quantified Self Too Far? (Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine)
- Aug 4, 202630 min
32: Create A Space That Changes People
Most branded spaces are designed to be seen. Meaningful spaces are designed to change how people behave. A special space begins with a threshold, something that separates ordinary life from the world people are being invited into. It might be a dress code, a request to remove your shoes, a candle lit in a boardroom, or an intention set before arriving. The point is to interrupt expectations. When familiar scripts stop working, people become more vulnerable and open to transformation. That interruption can require a cost. Brands often fear asking participants to prepare, commit, follow a standard, or tolerate friction. But participation is what completes the experience. You only build half the space. The other half appears when people understand their role in creating it. Inside the threshold, permissions determine what becomes possible. Every gathering has rules, whether they are designed intentionally or imported from the outside world. A meaningful host embodies those rules and protects them until the culture becomes self-reinforcing. In this episode, Jasmine and Jean-Louis explore why “don’t be a chill host” is useful advice, how carefully chosen guests create shared identity, and why small acts of interdependence can produce deeper connection. They also share examples from hosting their own Exposure Therapy events. Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading: The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters (Priya Parker) In an AI World, Everyone Will Need to Come Home (Concept Bureau) Welcome to AirSpace (Kyle Chayka) “People like us do things like this” (Seth Godin) Check out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Community.
- Jul 1, 202633 min
31: Rethink Your Personal Brand
Personal branding has an ick factor. It can feel like vanity, performance, or selling off a private part of yourself. But that discomfort often comes from misunderstanding the work. At its best, a personal brand is a service. It names a feeling people have not been able to articulate, gives them a story for understanding themselves, and creates the release of being witnessed. That matters because expertise has changed. Authority once came from credentials, institutional distance, and polished certainty. Today, credibility increasingly comes from participation: showing your evolution, putting skin in the game, and letting people see how the work changes you. In this episode, Jasmine and Jean-Louis explore personal branding as story making. A strong personal brand directs attention to a specific truth about who you are and what others can become through you. It is not a static niche or a persona engineered for reach. It has to move. People may find you through expertise, but they stay because your trajectory helps them grow. The conversation also looks at the mechanics that make a story believable: inner circle interviews, mythological moments, rituals, artifacts, vulnerability, pain, and sacrifice. Reinvention without cost can feel hollow. People believe you when they can see what you risked and whether you truly love the thing. Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading: Surviving Your Personal Brand (Concept Bureau) Now Say This: The Right Words to Solve Every Parenting Dilemma (Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright) Mindset: The New Psychology of Success (Carol Dweck) Check out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Community.
- May 12, 202636 min
30: How To Be Professionally Curious
Staying professionally curious sounds simple, but it is one of the hardest disciplines of strategy. It is not about reading more, saving more, scrolling more, or building an infinite pile of references. It is about developing a mind that knows what to feed on, what to reject, and how to metabolize information into original thought. Information is food. We digest ideas, chew on thoughts, sit with raw facts, and let things simmer. If strategists are bodybuilders of the mind, the diet has to be intentional. Social feeds, books, podcasts, conversations, lectures, old histories, fiction, academia, and side projects each have a different nutritional profile. Some inputs raise adrenaline or cortisol. Some restore oxytocin. Some provide breadth, but very little depth. The question is not just whether an input is good or bad. It is what that input does to your nervous system and whether it can become useful thought. Consumption is only half the work. The more important part is digestion. You have to chew the information by slowing down, reflecting, talking about it, writing through it, and turning the jewel with other people. Conversation adds emotional stakes and intellectual rigor. This episode also looks at the instinct behind great strategy: the ability to notice what is weird and know when the weirdness matters. The strongest insights rarely come from the average box of shared information. They come from rare places, from the edges of fields, old books, sci-fi, academia, history, other professions, and strange moments where trend and countertrend rhyme. That is where AI becomes complicated. It can help us go wide and find more material. But when it starts deciding what is interesting, it can weaken the very muscle strategists are trying to build. Professional curiosity is not passive openness. It is disciplined exposure. And when everyone is consuming the same feeds and asking the same tools for answers, the rare insight belongs to the person who still knows how to get lost. Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading: How To Create a High Performance Information Diet (Concept Bureau) Metaphors We Live By (George Lakoff and Mark Johnson) Digital Being: social media and the predictive mind (Ben White, Andy Clark and Mark Miller) Make Noise: A Creator's Guide to Podcasting and Great Audio Storytelling (Eric Nuzum) Why we stopped making Einsteins (Erik Hoel) Check out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Therapy.
- Apr 6, 202636 min
29: Pruned Futures
Some of our most prominent expectations of the future just died. In this episode, we explore what replaces them. We start with achievement. For decades, culture has been organized around progress and accomplishment. But as AI accelerates discovery and takes over more forms of achievement, that model begins to break. Achievement becomes less meaningful, and attention shifts toward experience, connection, and how life feels. At the same time, AI has become a mythology. As belief in collective human solutions declines, many futures have collapsed into one idea: AI will solve it for us. Not because we know it will, but because it is the only narrative that can hold that scale of hope. This leaves us in a liminal space. Old systems no longer work, and new ones have not formed. You can see this in motherhood and beauty as well. The idea that motherhood can be incrementally improved has given way to a need for entirely new models. Beauty is also fragmenting, moving from a single ideal to many competing definitions, with cultural signals reflecting a rejection of the old standard. Across all of this, the pattern is the same. We are moving from progress to ambiguity. From clear signals to contested ones. From knowing what to strive for to having to invent it ourselves. Links to interesting things mentioned in this episode and further reading: The Futures That Just Died (Concept Bureau) Deep Utopia (Nick Bostrom) Awakening from the Meaning Crisis (John Vervaeke) The Singularity Is Near (Ray Kurzweil) Meta told to pay $375m for misleading users over child safety (BBC) Check out our Substack for more brand strategy thinking, and our community Exposure Therapy.
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About Unseen Unknown
Unseen Unknown is a brand and business strategy podcast about the hidden threads that connect even the most distant of cultural concepts. We look at the emerging trends and behaviors that may be pointing to a deeper truth and ask the bigger question, “Why is society moving in this direction, and how can we apply it to business?”We believe if we can’t see it in our culture, then we can’t know it in the market. From retail and consumerism to politics, gender, identity and values, there are patterns everywhere that illuminate a path forward for brands. Your hosts, Jasmine Bina and Jean-Louis Rawlence, are brand strategists and futurists that explore these questions every day in their work for companies around the world. We’ll be interviewing thought leaders and domain experts both within brand strategy and outside of it.Expect to hear from people from all walks of life: artists, scientists, CEOs, journalists, professors, technologists and everyone in between. If you’re a founder, lead
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