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by Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin
Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
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- 6 days ago51 min
The Real Reason Elon Wants SpaceX and Tesla to Merge Now
Elon tells investors on an earnings call that SpaceX and Tesla should merge, and Sam has a theory he says nobody else has floated: there's an enormous SpaceX lockup cliff coming in the spring, and folding Tesla's retail shareholders into the denominator makes all that supply far easier to absorb. Dave thinks the rocket powered car demo was timed to justify the deal, Sam thinks two engineers got told to bolt rockets onto a car and it will never ship, and 83% of respondents in the Information's new Polls app say it's mostly about Musk control. Then OpenAI finds a web-wide PHP vulnerability and Sam's conclusion is blunt: all your regional banks will be hacked, the labs are centralizing profits while externalizing the risk, and they should be carrying hundred billion dollar insurance policies. Plus Google quietly telling Jess she's liable for everything her agents do, Netflix's content shakeup, Dave's theory of priority slop, and Brit's second week with no back pain.Chapters:00:00 Intro01:04 Dave's Back, and the Nasal Rinse Discourse02:06 OpenAI Finds a Web-Wide PHP Vulnerability03:12 Sam: All Your Regional Banks Will Be Hacked04:16 The Zero Days the Labs Are Quietly Sitting On04:56 Dave on the Gap Between Frontier Models and the Public Ones06:29 Why Labs Should Ban Their Own Teams From the Frontier07:17 Pearl, Coinbase, and Bitcoin as a Byproduct of Compute08:32 Can You Even Build a Cybersecurity Company in 202609:16 Cold Storage: Your Documents in a Mine Near the North Pole10:22 Sam: The Labs Need $100 Billion Liability Policies11:30 Google Says You're Liable for Everything Your Agents Do13:55 How Many Teslas Have the Morins Owned?15:05 Sam's Mazda Dealership Is Living in the Future16:32 The Two Futures of Car Buying17:14 SpaceX and Tesla Are Going to Merge18:01 The Rocket Car Demo Was a Stunt to Justify the Deal19:24 Elon Doesn't Control Tesla, and That's the Point21:09 Why the Merger Needs a Narrative22:25 The Information Launches Polls: 83% Say It's About Control23:09 Sam's Lockup Theory That Nobody Else Has Said25:36 Will Shareholders Approve It, and the SXSI Joke27:29 Brit: Teslas Are Becoming Entertainment Vehicles28:17 Dave on the Cyber Cab Experience30:12 Jess's Enthusiasm Falls Back to Earth, and the Waymo Bug32:33 Netflix: Content Shakeup and What They Should Actually Make35:32 Dave's Viral Take: Content Slop vs Priority Slop38:05 Sam Let His Bot Write the Entire AGM Deck39:28 Dave's Broadsheet Newspaper for Offline40:19 Internships for Teenagers, Run by Bots41:30 Meta's New Voting Stock and the End of Capitalism42:08 The Wealth Tax Debate44:36 The Elizabeth Holmes Movie and the Surprise Q&A49:28 Peptide Check-In, and a Necessary DisclaimerWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- 1 weeks ago50 min
The Death of the Web Is Inevitable
Jess went full send on Muse and reports that about 70% of the use cases she was excited about have stopped working, because the internet is fighting back: Good Eggs now wants her to check out in the app, her kid's school portal refuses the login, and JP Morgan and Amazon are blocking agents outright. Dave's version is worse. Instinct booked a dinner reservation in LA instead of San Francisco, and he's out. Sam has seen this exact movie, because he and Andrew Kortina ran Fin ten years ago and shut it down once they worked out you become liable for every provider down the chain with no margin to cover your own mistakes. His call now is the death of the web, plus APIs that negotiate access back and forth like Hollywood agents. Meanwhile Anthropic is meeting investors behind closed doors while they tape, the market is getting hammered, and Brit's three years of hip pain vanished in six days on peptides, which Sam insists is placebo.Timestamps:01:09 Jess Is Back, Dave's Birthday, and the October Cold03:04 Nasal Rinses and Fall Immunity04:02 Brit's Peptide Results: Three Years of Pain Gone in Six Days06:43 Anthropic Is Meeting Investors While We Tape07:34 The Market Is Getting Hammered: VIX, Private Credit, Apollo08:16 Infrastructure IPOs Stall and Nvidia Becomes the Last Investor10:01 Slowing Revenue, CFOs Cracking Down, Tokens Moving to Open Models10:36 Sam: Would You Rather Be Rich or Right?11:11 The Models Are a Commodity and There Is No Lock-In12:15 Brit Won't Give Muse Her Whole Computer13:41 Why Sam Trusts Meta More Than OpenAI or Anthropic15:16 Jess: 70% of My Muse Use Cases Don't Work Anymore16:54 Dave: Instinct Booked the Restaurant in the Wrong City18:18 Sam on Fin, the Assistant Company He Ran Ten Years Ago20:30 Why the Economics of Mistakes Break Agent Services22:31 Sam: What's Inevitable Is the Death of the Web23:09 APIs as Constant Negotiation, and Agents With Reputations24:51 Agent Credit Scores: FICO for Bots25:56 Amazon's Rufus Still Works, and Other Branding Crimes27:13 The Seesaw: Built Up and Torn Down Intraday28:41 Gen Z Media, Muse Memes, and Punk Rock by Another Name32:53 Is the Punk Rock Thing Just Marketing?34:37 Every Company Now Needs a Gen Z Meme Lord36:14 The Truth Subculture and Who Actually Pays for It37:32 Jess Is Interviewing Barry Weiss at WTF40:20 Bumble Goes Private at $1.3B43:07 Dave on Seven Years of Hinge and Why Dating Is So Hard46:41 Apple's Home Hub and Keeping Screens Away From Kids49:04 Everyone Is Going to See the Elizabeth Holmes MovieWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- 2 weeks ago53 min
Agentic Commerce Hits a Wall: Hilton, Amazon and the Bot Blocking Fight
Meta and Microsoft, two of Anthropic's biggest enterprise customers, have roughly halved their Claude usage, and both are running their own models instead. Dave's diagnosis is the one nobody else is making: Claude was over-tuned for parasocial relationships, people got into something unhealthy with it, and organizations are now quietly backing away. Sam is blunter about the business. He runs Claude as infrastructure, but switching off would be a one line change he'd never think about twice. Then it gets strange: a dinner where only the lab researchers raised their hands when asked if one company will be left standing, a lab that believes the machine god will go back in time and simulate hell for anyone who didn't build it, and Sam's case that Silicon Valley caught zero-and-infinity thinking from crypto and broke its own spreadsheets. Plus Hilton's website trapping Sam's agent in a doom loop, and Dave and Sam inventing the Agent Treaty Framework on air. Jess is at an offsite, so it's three VCs and no journalist.In this episode:- Why two of Anthropic's largest customers cut their Claude usage in half, weeks before the IPO- Dave on parasocial tuning as the thing that actually burned Claude, and how you can spot Claude slop on Twitter- Zero, infinity, and what crypto taught the Valley about putting infinity in a spreadsheet- The dinner question about one company being left standing, and who raised their hand- The personal agent protocol from Meta, Walmart, Shopify, Stripe and Sierra, and why Dave says it's about commerce, not protection- Hilton, Cloudflare and Amazon blocking agents, and whether holding the line counts as collusion- Dave on building agents versus building agency, and whose potential we're underwriting- The Agent Treaty Framework: why pairwise deals replace standards when negotiation is free- Megalith buying unexercised pro rata from seed funds, and Sam's war story about the fund that quashed hisChapters:00:00 Trailer00:51 Brit Moderates: Three VCs and No Journalist03:43 Peptide Protocols, the Wolverine Stack, and a Dexa Scan07:42 Sam on the Nathan Fielder Movie09:30 Meta and Microsoft Halve Their Claude Usage10:13 Dave: Claude Was Over-Tuned for Parasocial Relationships11:19 Sam: Switching Off Claude Is a One Line Change13:46 Zero, Infinity, and What Crypto Taught the Valley17:53 The Dinner Where Only the Lab People Raised Their Hands19:41 The Lab That Believes in the Machine God20:01 Lab Leaks, Infinite Liability, and What a Real Framework Looks Like21:56 The Personal Agent Protocol: Meta, Walmart, Shopify, Stripe23:01 Sam: Nobody Should Care About MCP24:03 Hilton Traps Sam's Agent in a Doom Loop26:30 If You Ran Hilton, Would You Let the Bots In?27:15 Facebook Connect, Open Graph, and the Missing Value Trade29:41 Dave: Building Agents vs Building Agency33:53 The Social Media Era Already Ran This Experiment37:02 The Agent Treaty Framework Is Born38:16 Why Standards Are Over and Treaties Are Next41:28 Megalith and the Market for Unexercised Pro Rata42:32 Sam's Pro Rata War Story45:53 64% of LPs Now Want Co-Invest Rights48:03 What Hedge Fund Letters Say That VCs Don't49:20 Main Street Says It Hates AI, Then Uses It53:27 Plug of the Week: The MillWe're also onX: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- 3 weeks ago57 min
Meta Muse vs Instinct vs OpenAI Dots: Do AI Agents Have Any Moat?
Anthropic's S-1 leaked and the numbers are not what the narrative promised: revenue flatlining as token prices drop, and SaaS investors posting memes welcoming Anthropic to the no-growth table. Jess still puts it at 60% they get out in November, which looks optimistic in a week when Oura pulled its IPO and blamed market conditions. Sam's problem with the core business is simpler than any of it: he runs Claude as the center of his infrastructure, and if it vanished tomorrow he'd care for about one second. Dave spots the strategy mishap nobody is naming, where forward deployed teams built software to burn luxury tokens right as open models had CFOs asking why they're paying premium prices. Then Adrian drops into the pod uninvited to argue there's no moat left unless you own the infrastructure, the data, or the algorithms.In this episode:- The leaked S-1: flatlining revenue, half a trillion in mostly non-cancellable contracts, and why the cloud providers are the ones making money- Oura pulling its IPO, LPs stuck in a quiet period, and the barbell strategy that sent World Labs out at $8B- Sam on Wall Street and Silicon Valley splitting over what AI is worth, and why staying private may beat going public- Jess on companies priced for a growth rate larger than the entire US economy- Dave on the forward deployed bet and open models undercutting luxury tokens- Jess announces her bot AGI challenge: update three kids' after-school plans and sync them to Google Calendar- Adrian on the moat question: no lock-in without BD deals, so the business teams get overpaid next- Brit's instinct talking to Dave's instinct, and what happens when you stop texting the people you love- Whether this is the end of times or the beginning of them, and why offline is the new luxuryChapters:00:00 Trailer 01:04 Live From X HQ, and a 39 Degree Cold Plunge02:57 Dunbar's Number, but for Bots05:48 Anthropic's Leaked S-1 and the Flatlining Revenue07:37 Oura Pulls Its IPO and the LPs Get Stuck09:36 What's Actually Happening in the Markets10:41 Wall Street and Silicon Valley Split on AI's Price Tag12:45 World Labs Sells for $8B: The Barbell Strategy14:11 Half a Trillion in Contracts, and Who's Really Making Money14:54 What Happens If OpenAI and Anthropic Don't Work Out?16:11 Priced for a Growth Rate Bigger Than the US Economy18:04 Open Models Pass Closed Models on the Charts18:51 Sam: If Claude Vanished Tomorrow, I'd Care for One Second19:43 The Forward Deployed Bet and the Luxury Token Problem22:16 Adrian Drops In: 300 Startups, 40 Unicorns, and a Plane24:39 Jess Goes Full Muse26:28 The Bot AGI Challenge: After-School Plans and the Mom Index28:23 OpenAI Rebrands Codex as Dots30:30 Adrian on the Moat: Winner Take Some31:38 Brit's Agent Starts Talking to Dave's Agent33:51 No Switching Costs, So BD Deals Are the Only Lock-In36:13 Dave: Instinct Is the New Kayak38:47 Adrian's Opposite Thesis: We Go Further Into the Screens43:39 Who Has Agency, You or the Technology?44:22 Offline Is the New Luxury46:31 Everyone Is Building Personal Apps Now47:54 Book Rec: Ari Emanuel's Roll the Calls50:44 Adrian's Parting Shot: Infrastructure, Data, or Algorithms53:02 Sam's Middle Ages 2.0: Castles, Moats, and HoardingWe're also onX: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- Sep 25, 202658 min
Claude Is Doing Science, a16z Is Starting a University & the AI Bubble Keeps Growing and Still Be a Terrible Business; We'd Rather Send Our Kids to the Military Than to a16z's School
Andreessen Horowitz puts $35 million into a new school and the pod nearly falls apart over it. Sam says he'd rather send his kids to the military, Jess is all for fixing higher ed but not with two venture capitalists writing the curriculum, and guest Matt Mazzeo (NoHo Labs founder, former CAA agent, prolific angel) spends ten minutes asking why the four of them can't be more optimistic about anything. Then Claude runs 10,000 agents for 21 hours and discovers a new enzyme system, which Brit points out is the beginning of two solid months of Claude catnip before the IPO. Sam's bigger worry: you can't take a company public when your top risk factor isn't the New York Times lawsuit, it's setting off nukes. Dave thinks the question nobody is asking is whether your agent represents you or the lab, because your Muse agent works for Meta. Plus Amazon blocking Muse, the Saint Petersburg paradox, and Matt going from 250 pounds to single digit body fat on peptides.Matt is giving More or Less listeners 50% off their first month at NoHo Labs. Use code: MOREORLESSVIP on https://noholabs.com/In this episode:- Why the a16z school turned into the most heated argument this pod has had, and where each of them landed on Alpha School- Claude discovering a new enzyme system with 10,000 agents in 21 hours, and the timing of that announcement- Sam on why infinite liability may keep Anthropic from going public at all- Matt's maximalist case: long frontier labs, long open source, long all of it- The Saint Petersburg paradox, and why there's no way to price a company pitched as an infinite payout- Greg Brockman redefining AGI as a gradual series of events, three years after it was sold as a winner-take-all moment- Amazon blocking Muse, and whether every agent ends up in business development talks- Does your agent faithfully represent you, or the lab that built it?- Peptides 101 with Matt: what they are, the FDA moving them back into compounding pharmacies, and what a protocol actually costsWe're also on X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/HN8yVnAXocQApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/Connect with our guest:Matt Mazzeo: https://x.com/MazzeoNoHo Labs: 50% off your first month with code MOREORLESSVIP Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- Sep 18, 202656 min
Anthropic Wants to Slow AI Down & Instinct Wants a $10B Valuation. Is It Because They're Losing? Is Dario Amodei Actually Right?
Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left. Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing.In this episode:- Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows- Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture- Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China- What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product- Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend- The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos- Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it?- Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investorChapters:00:00 Intro01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing?06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models?18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab?23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake?30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in TechWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- Sep 11, 202651 min
iPhone Duo, Meta Muse & Why AI Finally Scared Dave Morin
Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open).Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards.In this episode:- Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now- The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola- Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?"- Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars- Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once- Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture- Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI- The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budgetChapters:00:00 Trailer01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League?02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China)12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You?20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 198227:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture?33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match ProblemWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/Connect with us here:Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessinDave Morin: https://x.com/davemorinJessica Lessin: https://x.com/JessicalessinBrit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- Sep 4, 202655 min
AI Agents Are Going Rogue. Should We Be Worried?
Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave3:21 The recursive Sam loop8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents?19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money?24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents?28:46 Suds joins the podcast33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva?51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on FacebookWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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About More or Less
Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
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More or Less publishes weekly. Our AI generates a summary within hours of each new episode.
What topics does More or Less cover?
More or Less covers topics including Technology. Our AI identifies the specific themes in each episode and highlights what matters most to you.
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Free forever for up to 3 podcasts. No credit card required.
Free forever for up to 3 podcasts. No credit card required.